The gene in the crown?
Academician Sergey Lukyanov: Covid is not a disaster, but a very serious problem
Irina Krasnopolskaya, Rossiyskaya Gazeta
Why does one of the leading experts in the field of molecular biology and genetic engineering, Rector of the Russian Medical University named after Pirogov, Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Sergey Lukyanov have mice, frogs, turtles at home? They help him in studying topical issues of geriatrics, gerontology. And by and large, the disclosure of the secrets of complex genomes. Now there is a covid pandemic in the yard. Is genetic engineering able to influence it? This is our conversation.
– Sergey Anatolyevich! How does the gene in the crown feel? Or is he not there at all?
– Sergey Lukyanov: The research that is being conducted on coronavirus is primarily genomic. The key is to analyze its structure, the mutations that occur, the genes that encode proteins. And which ultimately provide a negative effect. By the way, its mechanism is still unclear. Why is part of the body's systems so badly affected? We still can't answer for sure. That's why research is being conducted at the genomic level.
For now, we can talk about hypotheses. But I want to say that the drugs that have been created by mankind, I mean vaccines, are a genetically engineered product. It was created by genetic engineering. From the point of view of a biologist, a genetic engineer, all this is very beautiful.
– Is beauty also important for research? Do the same mice and turtles contribute to it? Or are they just a kind of decoration here, if we are talking about the current pandemic?
– Sergey Lukyanov: You're being ironic in vain! Without animal testing today, there can be no question of moving towards a person. And no computers, analog devices can still replace them in full-fledged tests. We need to understand the mechanism of the virus. And again, we don't have any tools other than animal models. And today there is another problem: we do not have an animal model to study the effects of this virus. It needs to be created.
The main damage caused by the coronavirus is not the products of its vital activity themselves. This is the body's reaction to these products. And surprisingly, the reaction turns out to be pathological in several directions at once. We do not understand what exactly triggers the hyperreaction of the immune system. In principle, such a reaction also happens with other infections. But for the virus to cause a blood clotting disorder, pneumonia, microthrombs, which begin to form avalanche-like in all capillaries... How? Which of the virus proteins provokes this reaction? We don't know yet. Or loss of sense of smell. Someone believes that perception is disrupted in the central nervous system, someone believes that receptors are being attacked. Since I am not a neurologist, it is difficult for me to take someone's position. But I understand that the answer to this question has not yet been received.
– Sergey Anatolyevich, are you afraid of getting infected?
– Sergey Lukyanov: I've been vaccinated for a long time. So I was afraid after all. Vaccinated by Sputnik V.
– In your opinion, are the fears of the coronavirus not exaggerated? Is it really so dangerous that it can't be compared to the flu?
– Sergey Lukyanov: No one says it can't be compared to the flu. It's just that the flu is different. Covid, let's say, is several times more deadly than the rather harsh strains of influenza that we have encountered. But again: it's not the plague! Yes, it is very unpleasant. Every year we have waves of several types of flu. And a lot of people get sick and die. And our current problem is, relatively speaking, compressed. The number of people who died in a few years from the flu died in one year. But it's not the plague! Not Spanish.
– And not cholera. And not HIV?
– Sergey Lukyanov: HIV has its own problems. HIV is bad because it chronically enters the human population. And the population has to live with it constantly. With covid, we will still have some maximum morbidity. And then it has to go to very low levels.
– And we will return to normal life? Or will we always be "on a thread"?
– Sergey Lukyanov: I am very concerned about this issue, because I think that if covid came in the 80s or even in the 90s, we would not even know anything about him.
– Is it all the fault of new technologies, information, the Internet?
– Sergey Lukyanov: Not just technology. Our attitude to the cost of living has greatly increased. We have lived in a prosperous society for a long time. I told you about this earlier. And you said I was wrong. But statistics have shown that the death rate in Russia in 2020 is comparable to 2010. In 2010 and earlier, mortality was higher per 10,000 population. And we lived without panic. Gradually our life became more prosperous. And covid set us back ten years. And we are almost in paralysis and hysteria because of this. If we take the integral, the mortality rate increased by 10% relatively. Usually 1.5% of people die a year, and it became 1.6%. For families, loved ones – it's a tragedy, it's terrible. But soulless statistics do not know emotions. I really don't want these arguments of mine to be perceived cynically. Covid threw us away, but fortunately not in the Stone Age. Covid is not a catastrophe that brings down life. But it is a very serious problem, from which we cannot escape anywhere yet.
– Are your developments related to covid problems?
– Sergey Lukyanov: Yes. We are faced with the fact that we cannot yet give an answer: how strong the immunity of those who have been ill or vaccinated is formed over time. Analysis of the level of antibodies in the blood does not give an answer. Antibodies are produced for some time - a month, two, five. And then they disappear. Why? Yes, because our body is very economical. If we continuously produced antibodies for every infection we encounter throughout our lives… There are thousands of such infections. The concentration of each antibody in the blood would drop significantly. After all, the total amount of protein in the blood remains approximately at the same level. Blood cannot turn into jelly. Therefore, if there are no new attacks of a certain infection, then the body stops producing unnecessary antibodies. But the memory cells remain! And here is the most difficult part.
– That is, the body has its own life, unknown to us…
– Sergey Lukyanov: Sure.
– Can we manage it somehow?
– Sergey Lukyanov: By creating a vaccine, we manage it. But we also have to look: here a person has been ill, the antibodies have disappeared. How to find out: is it still protected? Is there any memory in it? The visible trace in T cells lasts much longer. Our technology, which we have created together with the FMBA of Russia, allows us to find this trace. For example, I came to a new area and I want to find out: how many people are immune to coronavirus. I can collect blood samples from a certain number of people and conduct a bioinformatic analysis of the T-receptor. That is, I decode the gene that is responsible for the formation of a receptor on the surface of the T‑cell.
– Can we say that a new specialization has appeared – a gene decoder?
– Sergey Lukyanov: Yes! The fact is that all human cells in the genome have approximately the same sequences. For example, cells from the cheek, lips, and eyes contain the same genome. But only the cells of the immune system from a large piece of the genome reassemble the gene. And each such cell has a protein on the surface with a unique structure, unlike the others. This is only in T cells and B cells. Why can your cells recognize any infection? Because during their formation, approximately one hundred billion different variants of these cells arise in the body.
– Why such a quantity? Have you counted them?
– Sergey Lukyanov: Well, we can appreciate this diversity with the help of modern technology. Whatever new agent attacks us, there will be someone among the hundred billion who recognizes him. And when he recognizes it, it will be a signal to a specific cell to reproduce. What takes a few days from the moment the virus enters the body to the first reactions? During this time, the cells, which are few, but which were able to recognize this virus, bacterium, fungus, whatever, need to multiply, increase their number a million times. And then launch a protection program: that is, attack the virus with new volumes and protect the body. Some of these cells will remain in the body forever.
Our technology allows us to detect these cells and find out whether a person has already encountered this virus, whether he has been ill, whether protection has been formed. By analyzing the structure of the receptor, which is one of a hundred billion, we can find out whether a person is protected or not. Such an analysis is much more effective than antibody analysis. We are working for the future. It is important for us to see what the situation will be in three months, six months, a year, in different districts…
– In your opinion, the virus is stronger than a human?
– Sergey Lukyanov: We don't measure our strength. I have been dealing with autoimmune diseases for many years. One of the main hypotheses of the development of autoimmunity looks like this. A person is ill with some kind of bacterium. The immune system is fighting it. But one of the proteins of the bacterium, not even the whole protein, but a piece of the protein of the bacterium, is very similar to a part of our protein, which (take as an example Bekhterev's disease) is located in the ligaments of connective tissue. A clone of cells appears. Our proliferating cells kill the bacterium. And then they notice that there are many more infected cells around. And they start killing these cells too, not realizing that it is their own protein. And they can kill… We still can't stop them. We don't know how. Still in the same Bekhterev's disease, they will gnaw this bone to madness, confident that they are saving the body. The bacterium wanted to strike me and wanted my life to become hard? So that my spine is hooked? No. She just infected me, I coped with her, but a combination of events led to the disease. So it is with covid – it is very difficult to find these intersections.
– So will we find it or not?
– Sergey Lukyanov: I can't say! Don't know. But I really hope so.
– Do you hope or do you not believe? Will we ever be able to invent a drug that will cure covid? The vaccine will not get rid of covid.
– Sergey Lukyanov: It cannot be said that there is nothing now. The same drugs that we use to treat autoimmune diseases are actively used to treat covid. It turned out that the reaction of our body is much scarier than the infection itself. Therefore, it is so important to first extinguish our reaction, and then the body will kill the virus for some time. The virus is completely controlled by the body. That is, it is not antiviral drugs that are more important, but the control of blood clotting and the level of inflammation.
– Is Covid smarter than us? Or are we smarter than Covid?
– Sergey Lukyanov: It is impossible to put this question in principle. If we look from the point of view of solving differential equations, then we are smarter. What is the mind of the covid? The mind is the brain. Covid has no brain. Analytics, creativity – covid has none of this.
– However, he behaves like a know-it-all…
– Sergey Lukyanov: If the virus does not infect a person, has an incubation period in which a person will spread it, then such viruses quickly disappear. And among the millions and billions of options, there are those that can exist. Here's the tumor. She's not smart! She kills the person she lives in, and at the same time she herself dies. Millions of tumor cells that occur throughout a person's life, the immune system kills without looking. But only those cells that were able to deceive the immune system, negotiate with it and turn into a small tumor, adjust the vessels for nutrition, isolate the necessary factors, survive. Well, the tumor cell didn't think about it! However, the option that could survive survived. And then we treat this cell. And she bypasses any medicine. Nothing works on her. And a little bit, she starts to defend herself. The other one wouldn't have survived... evolution.
– Does artificial intelligence help you in any way in your research against covid?
– Sergey Lukyanov: Now no technologies, especially search ones, pass without the help of artificial intelligence. I grew up in a time when there was no artificial intelligence. It is not the basis of my education. But this is the case when in a complex system we cannot monitor and analyze dozens of parameters. There just won't be enough "head". And artificial intelligence can. He takes a billion different cases, situations, compares them with each other and finds common features. Plus, he learns further by himself, because he sees more data than the human brain is able to hold.
– I repeat: is artificial intelligence smarter than you, academician?
– Sergey Lukyanov: And I repeat in the answer: you ask the question incorrectly. We are different. Artificial intelligence does not set me a task, but I set it. But I can't work like him, and he can't work like me.
– Can you work without him now?
– Sergey Lukyanov: Until recently, we worked without him. Yes, we can now. But worse. Less efficient. And the most impressive example: the Sputnik V vaccine is a product of genetic engineering. It could not have been created without genomic technologies.
– When there was no vaccine, everyone cried out: "Give me the vaccine!" And now, when there are several vaccines, when vaccination is announced, there are more and more doubters about the need for vaccination…
– Sergey Lukyanov: I have encountered skepticism, including among doctors. Our behavioral defense responses are embedded in us by evolution. And they are hardly exposed to reason. I have repeatedly cited the example of grandmothers who feed their grandchildren almost to obesity. This is a serious problem. But in those days, when this program was just being laid, there was not enough food. And those whom grandmothers sought to feed at any cost survived. Their genes have been preserved. The program does not care that we live in a time of excess calories, that it is dangerous. Grandma will feed! And there are a lot of such programs. We have to be careful.
– This is a normal phenomenon, as you say, evolution. Will evolution lead to the fact that people will be able to do without drugs?
– Sergey Lukyanov: I can't imagine that. If only in one case: if we digitize our identity and become part of a computer system. That's when, probably, medicines will not be needed. Our body is the most complex machine in the universe. Computers, spaceships are not just simpler – they are many orders of magnitude simpler. It is still so far from the moment when we will be able to control the body. I can't even imagine it. Imagine: 25,000 genes are just those that encode proteins. These proteins, interacting with each other, change something. And each of these changes affects everything else. At the same time, all processes are running simultaneously! Any attempt to program cellular processes today with the capacities that exist is doomed to failure. We do not know how to work with such complexity and will not learn soon.
– Aren't you afraid of a programmed, digital future?
– Sergey Lukyanov: On the contrary, I say that we will not face this in the foreseeable future. But for future generations, the virtual environment will become part of their living. They feel comfortable in it. Once we could not imagine life with a TV. And now we see how children do not get out of computers, mobile phones. This is just the next stage of human development, allowing you to do big things, run several processes in parallel, communicate around the world.
The object of evolution, social and biological, is not a person. This is a population. This is a biological axiom. Genes migrate within a population. And the population should, on the one hand, be very conservative, because any changes are risks. And on the other hand, you need to learn something new: the world is changing!
Nature didn't expect us to become so smart. She relies on our instincts and programs. Often we are disgusted by something that carries an infection. But we didn't know anything about the infection a few hundred years ago. We were just disgusted, and we didn't take it into our hands. And the one who picked up this "byaka", he got sick and died. There was a selection. Therefore, our attachment to traditions did not just appear. Populations that had no traditions died. We have confirmed the success of this model, because thanks to traditions we have survived. But there will always be people who want to try something, study something. They are specially allocated by the population to try to check the external environment, to experience changes. Some of them will go "over the mountain" and disappear, and someone will become the founder of a new village, city. And already its population will have new traditions.
I'll tell you a joke about traditions. Newlyweds. The husband sees that his wife cuts off the tips when cooking sausages. He asked her why you were doing this. She said, "Well, my mom used to do that, and I always do that." The husband called his mother-in-law and said: "Your daughter, when she cooks sausages, cuts off the tips. I'm just curious–why is she doing this?" "My mom," the mother–in–law replied, "did it too. So I continue." He called his grandmother, but she also said that her mother also did this. Thank God, my great-grandmother was also alive. Her husband also got through to her: "That's why, after all, women in your family cook sausages, cutting off their tips?" Great-grandmother answered him: "How? Are they still cooking sausages in that little saucepan that the sausages didn't fit in?"
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