Does a person need immortality?
Sergey Roganov, a writer, candidate of philosophical sciences, author of the concept of "mortal man", numerous works on the philosophy and psychology of death, answered the questions of the readers of "AIF".
– Immortality is a good thing. But people are afraid of the aging process. Why live forever, if after 60-70 years you are an old wreck, and after them-then eternity...– First of all, we need to figure out what kind of immortality you are talking about.
What religion offers us, including Christianity, does not mean at all that you, like an old wreck, will exist forever after death. The soul is immortal, and aging refers to the flesh. In addition, immortality presupposes the transformation of souls that takes place in the afterlife.
But, if we talk about modern ideas about "immortality", these are, first of all, various technologies and living standards that will allow you to start living as long as possible. Therefore, your remark hits the nail on the head! After all, consumer societies (modern developed countries) prefer to fight not for the purity of religious paintings of immortal existence, but with aging. Anti-aging programs in the USA and Europe are serious business, and it is growing and unfolding... At the age of 60 – 70, turning into a wreck is no longer fashionable, at this age life begins to be quite interesting, and the wisdom, the phenomenon of which psychologists have begun to study, is a special state of consciousness and psyche that begins after 60.
– But an attempt to prolong the existence of something is like if the Creator has run out of ideas for creating new forms, and duplicating the old is a problem for himself, in case it suddenly dawns.
– You are right in the sense that supporters of a radical change in human nature through new technologies are now called "man-gods". We know very well in history who the "man-god" is. That's what Fyodor Dostoevsky called the future socialists and communists. Now, reshaping the history of the planet is not as interesting as trying to recreate the man himself, as if there was no God or the seven days of creation. In your remark, you just point out where the supporters of earthly immortality are striving – to take the place of God. As for whether the Creator still has ideas for new forms, it is better to ask him himself.
– Is death part of the logic of a person's stay in this world?– Yes, the phenomenon of death is part of logic.
G. Hegel's dialectic is the philosophy of death, because negation (negation) is death. For existentialism (M. Heidegger, A. Camus, J. Sartre), for psychoanalysis (Z. Freud) and many others in the 20th century, the idea of death is a fundamental dimension of human existence and the process of self–reflection...
But there is another context. Your question hides another question – and what is the logic of death? Why does death exist, and what is the benefit to a person from death. The easiest answer is that this is how the world works, but I would like to clarify that the death of living organisms in the sense in which we understand it appeared as a result of aging processes, at a certain stage of evolution.
– What exactly is the expediency of the existing (short) life span of a person, what positive role does his death play – in terms of evolution, civilization or something?– Both aging and death are the result of the possibility for organisms to reproduce sexually.
Sexual reproduction is the most promising in the process of development of species of living beings, because it allows you to obtain a very wide variety of genetic material, unlike other forms of reproduction – division, budding. One can even say so – death is the progress of evolution towards the appearance of thinking beings, i.e. you and me.
– What is the view of the creators of the artificial life extension project regarding the nature of thinking? Is it clear that the work rests on the creation of artificial intelligence?– Yes, scientists from many countries are working intensively on this now.
Artificial intelligence centers and institutes are also appearing in Russia, but so far, alas, these are the first steps. In my opinion, the main mistake of many researchers is that consciousness is reduced to intelligence, and the latter to a computer. There is an illusion that it is enough to make powerful programs and the machine will start thinking like a person. A person's consciousness is not in the head, although it is certainly impossible without a brain. But the brain is nothing more than a tool. Consciousness, thinking is a form of generic social relations and is realized by the actions of people in society. The difference between a person and a computer is obvious – the latter is impossible without the work of the whole society.
– Did you make a mistake in the industry, delegating the problem of radical life extension to biotechnologies? Why do you think that it is necessary to dance from matter?– I am not delegating this, but modern science, science fiction writers, various scientists and researchers.
This often happens in culture when some scientific and technical movement is immediately identified with a person and society. It is believed that technology is a tool for creating a new person. It has always been so. There was the domination of mechanics, and the whole world and man were represented by a machine, for example, a clock. And remember the first half of the last century, when the achievements of the industrial world gave rise to science fiction writers to draw giant pictures of a new man and the future of the planet.
In fact, modern biotechnologies are the easiest and most effective way to get rid of aging, from the need to reproduce sexually (by the way, there is even a service – voluntary castration, as a means of radical rejuvenation.
– Has immortality already become available in narrow circles? And you, then, want to preserve the current status quo in the interests of narrow circles? To turn things around so that the people themselves do not want immortality?– Why "narrow circles"?
Remember – not so long ago, a mobile phone and a computer (laptop) were part of a "cool" business. And now? What do you mean by immortality and narrow circles? To fight for the prolongation of life is modern immortality. The anti-aging industry is a very powerful segment of the modern market of services, ranging from medicines to trainings, fitness, plastic surgery and many others. When people begin to struggle with aging, they begin to fight for biotechnology..., for earthly longevity. And then, – why not immortality, what's wrong?
Please note – when people begin to move their retirement age to 70, at 60 they see a midlife crisis, at 70 they require retraining and the opportunity to work – these are no longer narrow circles, but mass consumption…
– The topic is certainly interesting. But, it seems to me, the question is "Why should we die?" – if you put your hand on your heart, it is secondary. It follows from a question that a person is afraid to ask himself: "Why do I live?" I think if you transfer the question to the whole civilization, it will be more interesting for you to answer it: "Why does humanity exist on Earth?"– Why should we die?
– this is a question for a person – Why should we be human? Man ages and dies as a generic being, as a result of aging and sexual reproduction... This is a separate and very big topic...
Why humanity exists on Earth – I think that this is quite an appropriate question and not from the fiction section. Perhaps it is difficult for us to answer it, because we have just begun to study the Galaxy, the cosmos, the Universe as a whole. But I am sure that the answer to this question will be given, and very soon – by virtue of what laws of the development of the universe, humanity inevitably arises and develops?
– Ah, as I hope, a Russian and Orthodox person, it does not seem to you that there is no death at all as such, there is only eternal and endless life. That is, in other words, there is no need to be afraid of death, you just need to do so in order to deserve and ensure your continued existence.– I am Russian, but an atheist.
I believe that aging and death are a necessary stage of human development, an opportunity for him to go his own way as a person. Didn't God punish the first people with aging, reproduction and death? Good. We will live like people.
– So far, all the achievements of mankind in this area are very theoretical. A person who has lived to be 100 years old is still a rarity. The human mind has its limitations, and above the head (above the creator's plan), you will not jump. As before, the reproductive age of a woman is limited to 40 years of age, and retirement in the most "healthy" countries does not exceed 70 years. The paradox is that with the emergence of immortality, life on earth will cease. As a result of overpopulation, a birth quota will be introduced, children will become a rarity. A pitiful handful of able-bodied citizens will not be able to support the progressively inoperable population of retirement age, which will lead to crises, revolutions, wars, sabotage, artificial destruction of immortality technologies.– So it is, but the retirement age not so long ago approached 70 years.
In addition, now 70 years old is the age when you can get a new profession and start working in a new field ... Reading the report of the special commission under the President of the United States, I myself was surprised at how now the 70th anniversary is not considered as the limit when you can relax on the bench.
And the midlife crisis, which now, according to Europeans, may well happen at 60? And, remember, Porfiry Petrovich says to Raskolnikov – I'm 40, I'm a finished man, and you have your whole life ahead of you... Funny? Is it to tell a 40-year-old now that he is a finished man?!
Is the reproductive age limited to 40 years? And artificial insemination, the institute of surrogate mothers, artificial uterus, artificial gestation of the fetus, how is it? Overpopulation, – yes, an argument. But when was there no such argument? In Rome? In Europe in the 19th century? at 20? Tourists are already easily flying into space, and in my memory the planet was going crazy when the first man appeared in space...
The point, in my opinion, is different – a person is not aiming at the reconstruction of the planet, not at the reconstruction of the biosphere, but at his own nature, and radically, in a way that he has never swung in all the time of history…
Will this pursuit of earthly immortality end with the rebirth of man and his extinction just at the moment when he approaches the desired earthly immortality?
– Aren't you afraid to talk about immortality?– In my opinion, it's not scary to talk about immortality, but it's scary about death and lethality...
Dreams of immortality save a person from his fears. And here's what's interesting. In the second half of the 20th century, man's attitude to death became inverted, in the words of the French historian and cultural critic F. Aries. A person displaces all visible signs, symbols of death, dying away from the eyes. Bezenchuk in "12 chairs" was selling coffins at the train station. And there was enough "funeral" advertising. Have you seen an open coffin trade or an advertisement for funeral services anywhere right now?
And the cemeteries are now where they are – beyond the city limits, away... Once the graves of the ancestors were in the center of the settlements, the Slavs too. And the tombstones were tables. And the whole community gathered in the center, and all the holidays were celebrated at these tables, both old and young...
And where are the hospices now? – on the sidelines, away...
And about suicide, of which there are 60,000 in Russia a year, twice as much as from an accident somewhere they say? No. Is there any psychological help open on the radio? No...
Is there a TV program somewhere about death, dying, funerals? No. They launched it in Germany – CNN said about it in a separate line...
The fear of death is a separate phenomenon, and a separate story....
As for me, I'm not afraid to talk about death or immortality at all... I just never thought about it in relation to myself. Purely research interest, nothing personal...
– Well, well! And why would such a question be raised so widely at all, eh? We're preparing a landing pad for ourselves, aren't we? Mr. Chubais wants to make immortality for himself, and you mean, as in Soviet times, you are agitating – there is not enough sausage for everyone, because it is harmful? You're trying in vain, dear. They won't appreciate it. They won't take it with them.– Do I suggest campaigning for immortality in an embrace with Chubais in the topic of the conference?
God help him, Chubais... We'll sort it out somehow in an earthly, human way…
– From this conference, I learned for the first time that the brain is a vital organ for people who believe in eternal life. The idea of being able to change even the brain itself impressed. Apparently, this is long overdue for a modern person. Moreover, first you need to change the brain, and only then do rejuvenation and prolongation of life. Otherwise, why a new life with old brains or without them at all? I was also interested in the fact that dying with new brains is not as scary as with old ones. And to die also without wrinkles – generally awakens enthusiasm! Well, to the afterlife – with a new brain and face! I'm glad!
– The issue of brain replacement is approaching reality, although all this is still, of course, experiments and theories. But in the West, the problems of brain transplantation have been discussed for a long time. I.e., this is already a common model for various disputes. The most important problem is whether a person whose brain is transplanted into a new body will be able to "recognize" himself, perceive himself as a whole person in a new body, or will all past information be erased and a completely new person will appear?
Judging by the pace of development of information technologies, biotechnologies, this will happen in our century... After all, not so long ago they doubted the possibility of transplanting vital organs... Remember – Professor Dowell's head is Belyaev's beautiful fiction. But in the 50s, a photograph of a large dog flew around the world, with a live head of a small dog on its neck. Our surgeon, the famous Demikhov, operated like this... In the West, even such new trends as transhumanism have appeared – the emergence of a fundamentally new person, based on scientific and technological progress... So it turns out that death can be safely put out of brackets…
– Or maybe this "deathly dangerous" immortality for humanity is needed not by itself, but also as the idea of death, which "saves", i.e. makes you live, move somewhere, strive?– Actually, the idea of death is a good thing, although to whom, for example, I am neither cold nor hot, I think and live like this.
And without the idea of death, a person has enough worries. Only now, you are right, the idea of immortality completely displaces the idea of death: people are going to live for a long time. It is already "old-fashioned" to give birth to a lot of children, so even without philosophies, this death is pushed into a corner from all ends…
– This question has always tormented me, for as long as I can't remember myself, I was afraid of death like any other person, but as I got older, I realized one thing, that the so-called "immortality" about which scientists who have come close to the vaccine against old age tell me, is not a gift, but a curse. I came to this conclusion because it is not given to man by nature to live forever, such is human nature – having received the object of desire (immortality), a person will lose love for life, for what makes us live brightly.– Immortality as a curse – this idea appears constantly in culture...
Mostly – among atheists, naturalists, scientists, revolutionaries. The main thing is what is meant by immortality – is it simply the impossibility of dying, or the transition to another dimension? For communist regimes, the memory of the leaders is immortal. And it is worth dying only in the name of the great values of humanity. "Both his name and his work will survive the ages!" – remember this slogan?
– Once on New Year's Eve in New York, I interviewed people on the street - do they need immortality? No, they say it's not necessary. The Ultrafuturo group has a project related to cryonics, but they believe that no one needs to invest money in such a topic.– It is possible that cryonics for the entire human body or just the brain is not being invested yet, and in total about 400 people in the USA have agreed to such immortality.
But, after all, societies are fighting aging and increasing average life expectancy, and this is a giant investment, a giant market and services sector... If cryonics still smacks of fantasy, then trainings, fitness, plastic surgery, dietetics, perfumery, hygiene are all very profitable, because people need EVERYTHING now…
– I don't need immortality. I feel quite normal with the awareness of the finiteness of my being. And I don't feel any moral voluntarism. It is necessary to live with dignity, simply because it is necessary and no chimeras of rationalism lead me off this path. "Virtue is its own reward."– The same position, no one disputes...
Everyone has their own immortality. I think that it is everyone's right to choose what is convenient and comfortable for him, whether on earth or in heaven…
Portal "Eternal youth" www.vechnayamolodost.ru
02.10.2008